Mentoring Good Leaders: Candyce Kelshall

Our world is demanding a different kind of leadership to solve complex problems. Join us for a conversation with Candyce Kelshall on her experiences with leadership, and how we can mentor effective leaders in a way that develops confidence, connection and empathy.

About Candyce Kelshall

Candyce Kelshall is a seasoned, in-theatre operational director and has worked extensively with militaries and advising police forces around the world as well as designing and delivering training to specialist units.

She is a former senior diplomat who is comfortable liaising with governments and operating at all levels within parliamentary and military contexts She has taught vocational (police, law enforcement, military and intelligence) as well as academic programs in over 17 countries. She has been teaching in a university professional program context for the last 10 years.

Kelshall has extensive experience teaching both undergraduate and graduate programs in international relations, geo-strategic security, intelligence, risk & threat assessment. She has 30 years experience in diplomacy, law-enforcement and military professional training, and ten years as military and police advisor in the UK. She has previously served as a diplomat, naval officer, specialist advisor and consultant in disaster response, critical incident and terrorist response, national emergency management and multi-agency joint operations architecture, as well as training design for intelligence fusion centres. She is currently teaching at Simon Fraser University as an Adjunct Professor of Criminology. Her current research interests lie in violent transnational social movements and their role in fifth generation war, the evolving nature of contemporary conflict, post-structural perspectives on human security, and subaltern realism in developing countries.

Kelshall is currently the President of the Canadian Association for Security and Intelligence Studies (CASIS) - Vancouver , which encourages and promotes the study and practice of intelligence and security through its research projects, instructional teams, the biannual publication of the Journal of Intelligence, conflict and Warfare, roundtable events and the annual CASIS West Coast Security Conference. She serves as Editor-in-Chief of the Journal of Intelligence, Conflict and Warfare, which publishes practitioner-focused briefing notes and articles on contemporary Canadian security issues. Kelshall is also a board member at the Canadian International Council - Vancouver, which is dedicated to advancing Canada's place in the world. Kelshall currently serves as the Director of DA-IC, which conducts specialist training to military units and police officers.

(Interesting note: In this interview, Candyce talks about the stunning record Abby Wambach set as the world leading soccer goal scorer in international competition EVER - male or female. We recorded this interview in late 2019. In January 2020, Canadian soccer player Christine Sinclair has now broken that record!)

Website: CASIS - Vancouver
Find CASIS on Social Media : @CASISVancouver

Candyce Kelshall on Twitter: @CKelshall

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Health is wealthy, and this is where we're going to talk about it. The small conversations for a better world podcast with hosts Jillian McCormick and Susanna Steers. This podcast represents the opinions of the hosts and or their guests to the show. The content is for informational purposes only and should not be taken as medical advice nor established legal standard of care. Hello everyone, and welcome to the Small Conversations for a Better World podcast. I'm Susanna Steers.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

And I'm Gillian McCormick.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

I am so excited about today's conversation. It might seem at first as though we're going in a different direction than we might have done in previous episodes, but really we're just looking at things from a bit of a broader perspective. Now, I don't know about you, Gillian, but I know sometimes when I look at what I see happening around the world, the political, economic, and social upheaval, the conflicts, and also some of the really inspiring stuff, I wonder how we're going to navigate our way through the massive changes and the challenges that seem to be on the horizon. I'm stunned at the differences in the kinds of leadership that I see and experience around me. How do we compare someone like U.S. President Donald Trump with New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern? Or compare leadership behind big hedge fund corporations with socially conscious companies like Patagonia. I look at budding changes in corporate culture, and it seems to me that maybe the nature of leadership itself is changing. Our guest today is going to help us look at effective leadership and what it might mean for all of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

So I'm just gonna jump right in here with some background about today's guest, as I believe context is important here. So today our guest is Candace Kelschell. We met at an event called She Talks 2019, where 16 speakers with eight minutes each get to tell a story, their story. And I kind of went on a whim, very last minute. I grabbed a girlfriend and hauled out to Cloverdale to see what this was all about. I'd never gone to anything like this before. Um, and I really enjoyed it. If you didn't resonate with one speaker, it didn't matter because another one was coming on right up. Uh so I went to She Talks to vet it as a friend had recommended that I might try to be a speaker at an event like that. I didn't have any expectations of the day, really. And then Candace took the podium for her talk. And in eight minutes she said loads of things that I was truly sparked by. Statements like, good leadership is not gendered. This statement was dropped about two minutes into her talk after she'd casually confessed to her work experience of training special ops forces in various militaries around the world. So in a moment, I'll read her bio. She spoke about her work history and the types of environments that she's led within, battles for being recognized as the leader in the room by individuals who were deeply challenged by the notion that this woman was there to do the training, teaching, or leading that day, and she spoke of what she learned from that. She had a way of identifying and approaching the kinds of resistance a woman might encounter when she attempts to lead in forums where female leaders are still unconventional, that I thought had some real potential. So here's her bio. Stick with me here. Candace Kalshaw is a seasoned in-theater operational director and has worked extensively with militaries and advising police forces around the world, as well as designing and delivering training to specialist units. She's a former senior diplomat who's comfortable liaising with governments and operating at all levels within parliamentary and military contexts. She's taught vocational, police, law enforcement, military, and intelligence, as well as academic programs in over 17 countries. She's been teaching in a per university professional program context for the last 10 years. Kelshaw has extensive experience teaching both undergraduate and graduate programs in international relations, geostrategic security, intelligence, risk and threat assessment. She has 30 years experience in diplomacy, law enforcement, and military professional training, and 10 years as a military and police advisor in the UK. She has previously served as a diplomat, naval officer, specialist advisor, and consultant in disaster response, critical incident and terrorist response, national emergency management, and multi-agency joint operations architecture, as well as training design for intelligence fusion centers, special forces units, and national operations centers. She is currently teaching at Simon Fraser University as an adjunct professor of criminology. Her current research interests lie in violent transnational social movements and their role in fifth-generation war, the evolving nature of contemporary conflict, post-structural perspectives on human security, and subaltern realism in developing countries. Kelshaw is currently the president of the Canadian Association for Security and Intelligence Studies, Vancouver, which encourages and promotes the study and practice of intelligence and security through its research projects, instructional teams, the biannual publication of the Journal of Intelligence, Conflict and Warfare, Roundtable Events, and the annual CASIS West Coast Security Conference. She serves as the editor-in-chief of the Journal of Intelligence, Conflict and Warfare, which publishes practitioner-focused briefing notes and articles on contemporary Canadian security issues. She is also a board member at the Canadian International Council Vancouver, which is dedicated to advancing Canada's place in the world. Kelshaw currently serves as the director of the DAIC UK, which conducts specialist training to military units and police officers. Whew, I need a breath. I will share that I was not a small bit intimidated by this intelligent, well-spoken, and no nonsense woman. I was raised by no-nonsense women, and I probably am one. So I did uh pull up my big girl panties and I walked over during the break to introduce myself, and I was met with a handshake and eye contact and openness. And here's the thing: it wasn't Candace herself that was intimidating to me, but her background. If you put our bio side by side, you could almost not find two more different individuals. There are some words in her bio alone that fill me with fear. Just the words.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

I had to look some up.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Yes, me too. So I don't even know quite what I'm getting into here with this conversation, but I really want to have it. I've seen her in person, albeit briefly. I've watched clips of interviews that she's done, and I've been impressed with her poise and her confidence and her command. There's a quality in her that soothes my anxious heart. I am happy that she is busily thinking of the things that I don't want to think about. And mostly I think that there might be things to learn from a woman with military leadership experience in all those nations and governments and contexts about women leading in a man's world. Because the question is how do we create good leaders of both genders? I'm convinced that we will be challenged in being healthy if we don't see ourselves reflected in leadership at all levels and in all industries. We need to start seeing leaders of both sexes that can work together. And this is what I wrote in my email to Candace to invite her to come on the show. And to her credit, and my relief, she said yes. So, Candace, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Candace, I would love just to get a little bit of a sense of where and and how you grew up. Um, my both my grandparents served, and uh my dad was in the Navy a little bit as a young man, but I certainly wouldn't consider it us a military family, really. Um, but I I understand that you do come from a military family.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

I do. Um my father is an admiral. Uh there are only three of those uh in the Caribbean, uh in history. Uh l local uh local admirals. Um he was the second in in history and the first in in um in my country's uh history, Trinidad and Tobago, where I was born. So he is the first ever admiral, and my brother is a special forces naval officer of 20-something years uh uh career. So it's very much a family business.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

No kidding. What made you decide to follow in the family footsteps?

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Well, I really did want to follow in the family footsteps. Um at the time women weren't allowed in the military uh in the Caribbean. Uh I don't think anyway at that point. Um, and I'm not betraying how old I am. Uh but uh but I did very much want to be a fighter pilot, uh landing aircraft on on the backs of carriers. Um I went on to become a pilot. I I I became a um uh I flew before I could drive a car. Um I used to have to get dropped to the airport.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Um and that was legally okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Well sometimes I couldn't drive the car, but I could fly. So that was funny. So I used to do that with my dad, and um and that was the closest I got to being a fighter pilot um on a on an aircraft carrier. Um so I've been on aircraft carriers and I've and I've flown, but I haven't quite managed to get the two together. And um and that was one of my first uh learning experiences about being a woman and what you could and could not do and what was and was not allowed. And it just, you know, I tried. I threw my shoulder to the wall. I wrote to everyone, every minister, every defense minister, and saying I want to be the first woman in in the in the military in in Trinidad, and uh and this is what I want to do, and that didn't work. So, you know, I uh I just um I that was a first learning for me. You know, there are some walls you can't break down.

unknown 10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

Well, where did that drive come from?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Uh well, very much from I think my mother, ironically, who is a go-getter and a uh a face woman, um, who uh who's also the most nurturing, kind, generous woman that I know. Uh, but she is definitely from Warrior Stock.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

I love it. Now you're an academic. Where was your university training and what what did you study initially?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

I I um I realized very early on that if I stayed in Trinidad that I would not achieve the things I wanted to achieve, which is no uh which is not being negative about the country that I come from in any way. It's more a question of being negative about the time that I came from. Got it. So I'm not referring to the country, it was the the that time and place and space um in in the universe. Um I realized that if I stayed standing still, I would not be able to do the things that I knew I wanted to do in my head. And uh being in the military was one. Um I never became a fighter pilot, which is probab probably my one regret in my life. Um there are not very many of those. Yes. Um and so I went to apply for a scholarship uh which was uh the Shivening Scholarship, which is uh the British equivalent of the Fulbright Scholarship, and uh and and I and I won that. And I went to university in uh in Britain um and uh uh South Bank University. I applied to and got accepted at Cambridge, but they only had applied science options, and I wanted not not to be in that sort of science field, but rather to be able to do something that was far more hands-on, and so I went off and did a degree at South Bank University in uh in international business and international strategy. Um there is a story attached to that, but I'll have to tell you another time about the people I was in school with. It was in 1995, and one of the 9-11 aircraft bombers um was my classmate, but that's a whole other conversation.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

Oh goodness, a whole other small conversation or big conversation.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Really, really big, really big conversation.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

So, how did you make your way from that environment to providing training and and working with military bodies? Um, what were you teaching them? Was it physical skills, technological skills, theories of war, uh leadership? How did you get there?

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Okay, there's that's a lot of questions in one. Um, it's all good. It's all good. It's it's all good. Tell the story. Uh it's all good. Uh from South Bank, I uh sort of got headhunted into doing a PhD uh and a couple of the university professors there. I I was lecturing with them, uh immediately completing my masters. Um and uh and they in they I got a scholarship to do a PhD with them, and um and uh the Trintobago government, ironically, uh contacted me at that point to say we uh we need someone who can handle trade and investment and uh in in in London, and would you like to do that? So by the way, uh you'll become a diplomat, and by the way, you'll be running your own office. Oh my. And uh, by the way, we'll give you a staff, and do you want to do that? So it was a very, very difficult decision to give up finishing the PhD and going to work for your country. Yeah. Uh, but uh vanity got in the way. So uh so I took up the diplomatic offer, became a diplomat, became the head of trade and investment, uh, immediately finishing masters. I must have been 24, 25.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Okay, there it is. That's old you are. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

And uh and went off and did that. That contract came to an end, and one day someone walked into my office who worked for a military training company for Her Majesty's government, and uh and said, uh, here's your work permit. Uh here is uh your contract. Um welcome to this new line of work. My contract had come to the end with uh Trinan Tobago. I had at that point uh I was a permanently resident in the UK and uh and I started working in military training, which was weird because I'd given up on that and thought it wasn't gonna happen for me. And and it it walked into me. Full circle. So it's uh kind of how the universe is works with me. And I think how when you're in a space of good health and and abundance and well-being in your life, um, you tell the universe what you want and it gets delivered to you. And it came to me. I didn't go searching for it.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

So as in that in that diplomatic role initially, um, you must have been, I'm I'm assuming, negotiating or or talking with heads of state or or working with various.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Yeah. Were there ever were there ever people that you had to speak to or governments that you had to liaise with that were not open to having a woman in that kind of role?

SPEAKER_02 15:01

And what about a young woman?

SPEAKER_03 15:03

A young young woman particularly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

That's a tricky question. Um I'm I'm gonna say that once we got into a space where you were liaising with with other other governments and particularly other militaries, I seemed I I got thrust into that direction of liaising with other other militaries. Right. Well uh I didn't have a problem with with professionals. Um I did have an internal problem with people not appreciating uh that that A a woman and B a a young woman could be in a position of authority. Um in particular I had the worst trouble with women who were in senior positions, who I imagine looking back now fought harder than I did to be taken um seriously and respected. And so you only know one way to survive, you know, and in that era in that time. Correct. Um so uh so the difficulties were from within, not from without.

unknown 15:56

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

Yeah, I've heard that said uh a number of times actually of of women who who had come up and and the women above were the hardest ones to deal with because just as you say, they're the ones that have had to fight, fight, fight, and they opened the door in some ways for you to be there. Um and they they don't understand how how it was for you.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

I guess at that time I think another woman would was viewed as a threat because there were so few there, and if there was another one and and you know, younger and stronger, you would be viewed as a threat. But that that is a that is a theme right throughout my younger career um that I did notice. And it it struck me and I learned from it that I would not be, you know, I would not be like that. I would be supportive and nurturing way I could with other women because the more that they are, the better for all of us um to move ahead. Absolutely. Us as a as human beings, not as not as women.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

So I'm just curious, did you find any advantages to being female in a predominantly male environment?

SPEAKER_01 17:01

No.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

No. No.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah. Straight up. No, it's uh that was it was always perceived as a weakness, and until I I gained my own self-awareness, I accepted that view that I would succeed despite the fact that I was a woman, not because I was a woman. Right. But it's only in the latter part of my of my career that uh that that I it occurred to me that being a woman was the strongest asset that I had.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah, so expand on that. Why?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Um because women no, this is difficult, but leadership is not gendered. It's not. Let me explain why before I go back. Leadership is not gendered because to be a good leader it means you have to be a good motivator of people. And motivation is what makes leadership successful or not successful. If you and and let me distinguish between manipulation and motivation, just to be clear. Um women have a belief that they need to be manipulative in the workplace, either using their body, their clothing, their uh feminine wiles. You know, there is a mindset that that's how you get ahead in some in some spheres. That's manipulation. That's making people do things because you want them to do things. Motivation is completely different. It's making people do things because they want to do things. And to do that, you have to understand the people that you're working with. Um so you can't build team unless you build individual. And a good team is good individuals working together who are supportive of each other. And that is an unstoppable force.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

The connections right.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

So so motivation is very important and uh leadership is not gendered because if you are a motivator, it doesn't matter whether you're a man or a woman. A good leader knows how to motivate their team, not manipulate their team.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

So are you familiar with the body of thought that men and women are in fact very different kinds of leaders? That feminine leadership is often described as intuitive, inclusive, more about consensus and coaching. Um, it's been called transformational leadership style. Women leaders, I guess, so so says the leader uh the literature, don't just want their teams to do a good job, they want them to become a better person. So some of what you've said is in there, versus a more male-style leadership. Uh, they call it transactional leadership. And uh, so a transactional leader remains uninvolved, lets their teams focus on their work, waits until problems become severe before they step in and take charge, more of a command and control kind of a perspective.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Are you familiar with that? Of course, but I will throw a spanner in the works and tell you that I am both transactional and transformational. And in my experience, uh the leaders that I have worked with have been a combination of both. Uh more importantly, um the military where I come from uh doesn't see leadership in that way. The military military sees leadership as rank, but that rank has to be embodied by a motivator who's focused on the team. So the militaries function because teams function. Militaries are not about individuals going off and doing things. Even in the special forces, particularly in the special forces, it's the team that makes the mission become achieved effectively. And so you need to have a mix of transformational and transactional leadership. You need to have a mix of authoritarian mixed in with consensus and compromise and nurturing, in my opinion, to have a good, strong, and effective team. I have a team with me now at at CACES, which you kindly mentioned earlier, which is 60% women, 40% men. And I train them to be that combination of transactional and transformational. But more importantly, I also train the men in that organization to be able to work with strong women. Because there's no point having strong women if you have men who are unable to work with strong women and and fall back into uh you know all of the old stereotypes. Right. Um, so what I think is lacking in terms of skill sets today, if I may, is being able to work with men and to teach men how it is non-threatening to work with strong women. And in fact, we need both men and women are different, men and women do lead differently, but they don't have to.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

Okay. And I would say I'm I'm I don't I don't know if I say this, but I I'm just curious. The context of the context in which you are leading might then also dictate whether you're choosing uh a very strong transactional this has to happen now kind of situation. As opposed to something that maybe has a little more space to it.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

That's a wonderful, wonderful question. And the answer to that question is going to be the same answer I gave before. Yes. In moments of crisis, you want strong, authoritative, transactional type leaders to step forward, take charge and lead. But that leadership is only going to work if you spent the time transformationally leading and building a team that follows you because they trust you, have confidence in you, and know that you have their interests at heart, not yours. And that's the secret to good leadership. It's not about your interests, it's about their interests aligning to achieve something. So sorry. No, no, that's not a good thing. But it's no either or, there's no man or woman. I think the right the right approach is a blend. There's a blend.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

So a lot of the research that I found as I was digging away was actually just spoke about business. And I wonder if you had thoughts about leadership in the military and politics. Is that context a different animal than business that requires or actually even has its own field of study?

SPEAKER_01 23:04

That's uh another really good question. Um leadership is not gendered, and the circumstances in which leadership needs to be displayed, uh, regardless of the situation, the same age-or principles still apply. You know, the Royal Navy is 200, 300 years old. It has always functioned in the same way. The welfare of the men and women that are under your charge. At Christmas times, we serve, we serve our sailors Christmas lunch from an admiral down. You will go into the mess and you will serve the most junior sailor. At the Cases Mess Dinner that we have every year, we ha literally have the youngest, most junior member of the organization is served by the most senior admiral or general who is the visiting guest. And that symbolizes the passing on of knowledge, the sharing of uh all of the attributes that you need in order to succeed and get ahead. So it's a really strong symbolic gesture which is important. Now, I I I bring that story up because regardless of whether you're in business or or in the military, um, the same principles will apply. Crisis management, slightly different circumstance. Okay. Whenever there's a crisis, whenever there's a conflict, whenever there's war, uh authoritarian leaders emerge.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Somewhat alarming concept if you notice the number of authoritarian style leaders there are emerging in the world today. Right now. Um my side gig is teaching international relations and security. Um that is alarming, and it's alarming because it usually comes with a pattern of increased movement towards um uh traditional warfare. Um, true by traditional I mean conventional state-on-state warfare. The the number of authoritarian leaders in the world today is distressing because they will need an outlet for their authoritarianism. And generally, where there's a divided country that tends to focus on something external in order to bring the country together. Okay. So that's well recorded in the literature. So authoritarian leaders are present in moments of crisis, and that is by design. It helps you understand why Churchill wasn't re-elected immediately after the war. Um, you know, how how is that possible? It it actually is it makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

As I'm hearing you talk about working with your team, um are there is leadership something that you can teach? Or do you think that there are people who are innately leaders and sort of yes, there's some things you can learn, but good leaders are good leaders and they're born that way. I mean, do we all just need to be super charismatic and and connected? Or are there skills one can learn and apply in life?

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Okay, so I'm gonna go a little bit off-piste here from the existing literature. Okay. Um which, you know, you generally hear that leaders are born and uh, you know, they can't be made. Um this is personal. Um, in my experience, um, with the teams that I lead, um, a good leader is is a is a confident human being. And if someone has a personal sense of confidence about who they are and a and a knowledge of what they are capable of of doing, that can transfer itself to them speaking confidently when dealing with other groups of people. So in my book, there are people with innate natural leadership qualities that the environment that they come from nurtures in them, and they are dormant and resting there, waiting for someone to notice and pluck them out and put them into a position of leadership. But equally, I think there are people that do not have that strong sense of those leadership traits that you can give them confidence, give them a belief in abilities in themselves, and that that leadership can emerge. And those are arguably better leaders because they have to work harder at it than the ones to whom it comes naturally and they take it for granted, and sometimes they can be a little over the top. So again, a bit of both. Yeah. What what I do with my team is we every Saturday, these guys are lifting tires and building, putting planks together, and or we're going sailing or we're doing uh different kinds of exercises because I'm trying to instill in them this sense of accomplishment on very small levels. You know, my team built the tire house first. My team built the house from wood first. We at Christmas time we'll have gingerbread making competitions. These are big men and women working in security. Yeah. Why? Because we're trying to instill that confidence and the understanding that teamwork is where confidence comes from and where good leadership emerges from. So kind of a bit of both. But absolutely. There are people who are born with leadership traits uh who need to be nurtured and to be the best possible leader they can be. Um but equally they are people who uh who have no leadership apparent in them, but you can take them and give them confidence and make them feel braver and stronger, and that helps leadership qualities emerge. And then you can refine that.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

And I feel like those people, and and maybe it's just because I think that I um I resonate with that kind of person that I wouldn't have been necessarily a natural leader, but I'm driven to to bring things out, to talk about things, to reach out to people. And so I I have to push myself out of my comfort zone all the time just to get those things accomplished.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

But each time you do it, you feel more confident and easier. Exactly. And so once you keep doing that on repeat, you know, the whole wax on, wax off thing that people talk about. When you do something long enough, you get good at it, you become confident you can become a leader in that field. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah, I noticed that in business too. I mean, I'm a very reluctant business owner. Business was not my background, and yet, you know, sort of thrust into it and okay, here I go. Um, and then making decisions along the way and running into the challenges and the the roadblocks and finding a way through them. And now I look back at things that scared the liver out of me when I started. And now it's like, no biggie, carry on.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yes, but I also feel the two of you are masquerading and and pretending that you are not leaders, but you are. Both of you are confident, strong women who are leading in your fields and and have no fear.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Uh, we're coming into it now. We're coming into it now, Candace. But I don't know about not having any fear, but I think we also have courage. So, despite being afraid, we go out and we do things.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Well, listen to the word fearless. You have the fear. It's the less is the bit that you work on.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Oh, I think I like that way of looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

I want to write that down. Okay, we're gonna go on. We have it recorded. How nice. So I heard you give examples of the types of resistance to well, I'll just say female leadership, but maybe it's not actually about gender. Resistance to leadership that you've observed uh in that eight-minute conversation. There were things that you said. Can you uh and then you also had like a particular approach that you espoused needed to be used by those leaders to handle those kinds of subtypes. Can you talk about those?

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Okay, there were four. There were four. Um the first one are the mentors. Those are those are the vast majority of decent, well-educated, well-brought up uh men who actually don't they don't fear women, they're not afraid of women. In many cases, you know, they enjoy working with women. Um, mentors are people in positions of power who take the time to look at young leaders and nurture them and open doors to them and guide them. I met a lot of those in my career. Um, not all men that that you work with are uh to be feared or disliked. Right. So that's that's the first thing I want to see.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

So that's not an uh an example of resistance.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

That's not an example of resistance, and and you and and that's just any advice I would give advice to any woman who comes to me, or man for that matter, for advice about you know what do I do in my career. And my first thing is look for a mentor, someone who doesn't judge you for how way and how you failed, but who sees what's good in you and knows how to push and develop that and open doors for you. That's the first thing. Um, that's advice given to me by both my parents, which is solid. Actually, everything my mother ever said to me was solid, but I let's let's not tell her that. I just wish I'd listened. Right. Um, the other type of the so the other three types are the resistors that you come across. Um and uh and I think we would all recognize these types. Um there are there are the what I call tigers, a lot of noise. Um, you have to distinguish between a paper tiger and a real tiger. You know, one can hurt you, and one is just making noise. And these are the types of of resistant men who uh probably at the end of their career probably didn't achieve as much as they wanted to. They're not in a position to hurt you in any way, but they're just gonna make your life as difficult as possible. Um and and there's a there's quite a few of those, because when you see a a younger, stronger woman coming up, then that is something you know that that uh that that that is annoying to them, um, or especially if they're at the end of their career. Um the other type that I came across much more frequently um were dinosaurs. Um I'll give an example of what what I mean by that. Uh I was um quite young. I just joined the Naval Reserve and I was doing my tickets for boat handling, small boat handling. Now, I've grown up in the Caribbean. I was driving boats from the age of five. I had my own yacht, which was 15 foot by 12 foot, a trimaran at the age of 11. I would go beyond the horizon sailing with my boat. Unbeknownst to me at the time, my father had a small pirogue following me to make sure I was safe, but at a distance that I couldn't see, so I never knew that. So he let me get the confidence of doing it, but he there was a safety thing in the back, which he only told me recently. Um but here I am with this man who is uh the senior naval instructor for seamanship, who is 67 or something at the end of his career, and basically fails me five times with my boat handling.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Oh my.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Oh now I don't I don't want to be facetious and say I I knew more than he did, but I literally grew up handling boats on the water. So I had a conversation with my father. I was throwing things at this point with fury. It says number five, fail, dad. What do I do? And he goes, you know, this this guy's a dinosaur. Nothing you do is ever gonna change his mind. He said, How about you go talk to some of the other women who he has uh failed, and maybe, you know, between all of you, have a conversation or spark a conversation with someone else about it. So I put the phone down um and went and went to the rest of my cohort, and every one of them had been failed by this guy. And every man in the cohort had been passed by the guy, and I knew some of those guys didn't know how to put a boat alongside the way I did. And so what what we did was created a pack, and that pack then went out, and each one of the women in the group led by me went and spoke to different uh instructors in the in the seamanship school, and then the story came back that this guy was notorious for doing this, and uh everybody got retested by someone else, and everybody got their tickets. So, what did I learn from that? You cannot beat a dinosaur, you need to get the rest of your tribe. Your you know, if you want to use the caveman analogy, get the rest of the tribe to go out and don't try and take a dinosaur down on your own. Um, and then the third kind are the wolves. The uh the wolves, so again, familiar to every anyone who's worked in a workspace with negative men around them, they are the ones who make jokes, they do the sexist jokes, they uh laugh really loud, they don't exclude you in the you know, people going out for drinks, and you you know, you're the one woman not invited. Um, they basically cannot be dealt with uh as an individual because they move as a pack, literally, they stick together. And unless women stick together in the workplace and create their own pack, you're not gonna be able to deal with that. And the only way I found in my career to deal with wolves is that you challenge them, not alone, but with a group of people around you, you know, about what's acceptable and not acceptable in the workspace and what you will more importantly tolerate because what you tolerate you accept. If you don't accept it, you don't have to tolerate it, it doesn't exist. People know exactly where you stand, and that's how I've dealt with with those um you know packs of of what I call wolves. Um, but again, I just want to belabor the point. I love working with men, I've had a career working with men. Frankly, I love men. Uh, you know, I love their spirit, their energy, the ability to go out and change the world. And I love the fact that that that there are men who are accepting that they are women that want to do the same thing while acknowledging that women are different and men are different. That's an important point.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Well, and when you say it like that, it it's like of course all of those things can fit in the same room at once. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

Yeah, the container is big enough for everybody. Okay. So, I mean, you you talk about the pack. How how do you build a pack?

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Oh, that's easy. You build your team, you nurture the individuals around you, you create confidence in people. You instead of taking I never I as a leader, uh this is odd. I I like to stand back. So I like to empower and support the young women and men working with me. And then I always stand back and I let them take the lead. And they don't understand that. It's like, well, if you're the leader, why don't you do it? And it's like, well, because I've done it already, I want you to do it in a safe space, and you got me guiding you, go do it. So as a leader, I put my younger leaders forward so that they gain that confidence and the experience that we talked about that makes them into great leaders. So, you know, for me that's really important.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Yeah, gauging their abilities and their their special qualities and and putting them in positions where they can shine.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah, practice practicing uh being in a space where failure is acceptable is really important to becoming a great leader. Yes. Um, it's a healthy way of becoming a great leader. Because if you put someone into a position of of of power where there are huge consequences for them failing and they fail, their mental health is never going to be the same. Their their ability um and confidence and emotional well-being will never be the same because they're going to be carrying that like a scar always. Right. Whereas if you give people a space to practice failure in that is safe, then they don't have the scars of the failure. And now they know what not to do when they get out into the space where real responsibility is thrust upon them. So that's an important point for me, is to create a space where failure is is safe.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

That doesn't seem to be a common thing. I mean, uh it's just I'm not in the right environments, but it it seems to me that that's crucial. You know, winning.

unknown 38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

Getting into that place where, you know, it's perfection. It's getting it right and and it takes the pressure.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

If you're a young person now learning how to do something, it takes the pressure off of you. If the first thing you hear is, look, failure is inevitable in this situation. I just want you to give it your best. Let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

See where it goes.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

And and when we do our leadership training courses with uh the cases teams uh during their their executive curriculum, they learn that you are this exercise is unwinnable. You're not going to to be able to accomplish it. But I want to see how long it takes you, and I want to see how far you get. And then surprise, surprise, some of them actually do accomplish it, and then it comes as a as a huge you know, win. And and that's the bit that I'm looking for. It's that moment of self-reflection of I didn't think I could do this, but I just did. That's how I know that a new leader is being formed in front of me in that moment.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

And your ideas about mental health and and yes, that that uh you're training resilience in your leaders. But that strikes okay, so that strikes me as key. And also, did you figure that out on your own, or is that sort of spoken of in courses that you've taken, or things that you've read about, or like were you taught that, or did you just figure that out?

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Um, they didn't have any books on how should women be leaders, they didn't have any books on equality in the workspace. They there was none of that existed when I started out. And and I and and what did exist was very disparaging about women uh at the time. I mean, you go back and you read some of the leadership books, you know, from the 1970s and 1980s, it's cringeworthy um looking at them now. Uh no, uh this this is what I learned from the mistakes that I made.

unknown 40:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

This is uh failure I understand because when I failed, I failed spectacularly uh uh in the past, and and you carry those wounds and those scars and they don't they don't heal. So the best I can offer is the knowledge of what went wrong and the knowledge of the of the requirement for a safe space for people to learn that failure is is important to being a good leader. You have to be allowed to have that taste of failure so that you know what you don't want ever again to happen to you. And so a learning space where that's given is crucial. So, no, it it this is from my own experience in my learning.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

So you mentioned books actually, and in keeping with some advice uh out there in the actually popular literature these days, uh there's tons of books on leadership all of a sudden hitting the popular market. Uh one in particular that I had read just before I went to She Talks and heard your talk was by a uh former U.S. national women's soccer team player by the name of Abby Wombach, and she calls the book Wolf Pack. And it's actually based on uh an address that she gave to the graduating class of an all-girls school called Bernard College in New York State. And it's a rallying cry of sorts that that women, we are a wolf pack, and we need to uh support each other and be at each other, you know, be be there, not at each other like a wolf, but at our backs, have our backs. Um, are you familiar with this? It struck me that it was the same kind of language.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

I I am. Um there's a there's a lot of stuff. Um, I think she has eight principles that she that she uh advocates that women should uh take into account. One of them in particular, uh and first of all, before I say anything, uh Abby Wambo is is not just a member of the US women's football team. She is the all-time highest scorer of goals in international competition ever. Men and women.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Period.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Full stop.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Okay, and that's something that people often forget, and they refer to her as someone in the women's football team. She's surpassed everybody. Everybody. There is no male goal scorer that is more prolific than she is. Just on the on the arms. I love that. Thank you. Yes. So so that's that's a great example as well of how people kind of keep women in a in a you know in a certain perspective and not, you know, they look past the obvious. It just doesn't get talked about. That's that's what what happens. So one of the things that she talks about is I think to create your own path is one of the things that uh that she advocates. And it resonates with me because if you try to f she doesn't say this, but if you try to follow the paths that have been set as a woman by by men who have gone into positions of power, you are you're doomed to fail because because that has been set in such a way to allow men to s to succeed. So there that's fraught with danger and full of traps. So you can't follow established paths to leadership. There are examples of that in politicians in the US, for example, where you try to follow and you and you stay in the in the you know stay on that road, but it's it's the odds are stacked against you. So when she says create your own path, that really resonates with me, is that you need to come off of the road and do something different. And and a good example of someone who did that is perhaps Barack Obama, who who got to the presidential nomination via via crowdfunding, for example, and not the traditional route.

SPEAKER_04 43:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

So that's a good example of creating your own path because he's he's the first black American president, and the odds would have been static. against him if he'd gone the traditional route. That's that's just the way it is. So that's one of the things that she says that really resonates for me. Um the the bit about the pack is I women have to support each other and operate as a as a pack and I gave you the example from my own past of where that works. But but I would differ I would differ from her in one respect is that wealth packs shouldn't probably not the best example because because if you have a strong leader you're expecting to have strong followers. Whereas I believe in having a strong leader who has a pack of other leaders around them rather than followers. So I don't I don't have any followers around me currently in my in my workspace. I only have young leaders in training.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

I love that yeah yeah so that nobody is in a passive submissive position.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Absolutely they're all active in creating the success and moving toward the goals whatever that is accountability integrity responsibility is is part of what you know what is needed to nurture leaders. When you don't make someone accountable when you accept integrity is another great word what what what does integrity mean? Yeah yeah it just means if you say you're gonna do something you do it you do that's that's what it means that's integrity then people know who you are and what you stand for. And it's easier to follow someone if you know who they are and what you stand for than something nebulous that you don't want to know if you want to commit yourself to following that person. So integrity is important and uh and um I think you mentioned resilience before and and resilience is it's a big one for me from a from a health perspective as well. Emotional wellbeing and emotional health is really critical um in in in creating and nurturing leaders and unless someone has the ability to to be resilient in the face of of negative occurrences and to not be a victim to those negative occurrences but rather to accept that the only power they have is the power of how they deal with the circumstances then they don't have resilience. They become victims over and over again and there's so many stories of women uh who are who say that men have victimized them who complain about men and they say men didn't help them get by in the workplace and you know men are the reason they didn't succeed. That's nonsense. You're being a victim to something you are not being in power or empowered about your work experience. You're not seeing where there's a problem and taking steps to make changes or to come off the path and create something new and different. And resilience from an emotional well-being perspective is one of the most important words and it's one of the things that I I make sure and I train my team in is that you have to be able to get up when you fall down and you have to be able to say what you said you were going do what you said you were going to do. Right. And you have to only say what you're going to do if you know that you can do it. If you do follow and and if you keep that cycle going then you know you will achieve the task you set out.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

So as we talk about resilience um I just had a a a thought around vulnerability um if you are in a place where you you're needing to be resilient then there has to be room for as you say failure. Um and I'm just curious where you see can a leader be vulnerable?

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Great question. It's uh a struggle through the ages about whether um in the in the military there's something called the loneliness of command and the captain is usually in his or her cabin on their own they eat separately uh so that people have this leader to look up to there are circumstances where that is important. Yes. Okay. Um however even a good strong leader is able to be vulnerable uh to some degree with the team that they're leading because that's how they're being authentic. Right. So I can give the example of a recent uh Royal Canadian Navy ship that I spent some time on where the captain was one of the most authentic vulnerable strong leaders I have ever come across in my military career uh he was straight up would tell you where there were problems the his the problems that impacted him personally um as a result of this happening and then you felt a sense of his crew uh being a hundred percent committed to making sure that their captain did not have to deal with that issue. Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Because when you're an authentic leader you do have to be vulnerable. Now that doesn't mean you're being an emotional wreck and you're in tears and crying every day and people have to support you. That's the distinction I wanted to draw about being a victim versus being empowered. Right. And when you are empowered you can be vulnerable and it's authentic and you're not being a victim and needing people to come and lift you up and carry you and clean up your messes this is a really important distinction for me.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Hmm what's what's the vision is this a kind of leadership uh just gonna be taught is it taught in the military is it something that you're you're creating within your establishment and I want to know what that is are you teaching university students how to do this do we teach it in our high schools lots of questions.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

What's the vision? I'm gonna I want to cherry pick from all of those questions um uh the the military teaches you how to motivate and how to work with a team and it's fantastic if you're a young person that is the best education that you could have go out go sign up your local reserve unit and go and experience who you are and learn your strengths and your weaknesses and and do it in a team setting. I can't advocate that enough um in my own world currently I am a university lecturer my courses are kind of unique pretty hard because I'm very demanding academically but also I get the point that you're making is there's no point me teaching someone an academic subject I teach uh intelligence and international security I teach peacekeeping currently and I've also taught terrorism um uh terrorism policy determinants so I've taught everybody from from police commission police chiefs here in Vancouver to 19 year old uh undergraduates currently right uh at at Simon Fraser University in all of the programs that I teach I expect people to work in teams so there isn't ever an individual uh struggling in the classroom on their own but the reason I make people work in teams is because you have to learn how to deal with each other and work in team and even if you are running your own police force it's a good refresher of working in teams you know if you've been too removed from what's going on with the rank and file below you. So again um when I'm teaching I always teach in teams because that skill set of working together is so important in order to achieve things on a large scale. Yeah or personally small scale because you know women have to run families as well.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Yeah across industries and contacts that's more important in many ways because you're creating the future in that family setting you know so we were just gonna say that yeah we are coming to our end of our conversation uh but we know that you have an upcoming event the second annual West Coast Security Conference third annual third is the third I apologize. Yeah the one this one is the second but this is not coming out till 2020. So so I was just gonna say if you're listening to this we're recording this uh just prior to the 2019 conference but it's an annual conference so if this makes you curious there is one coming up in 2020 uh is it typically in November? It is yeah so you can look forward to that in November of this of this year is this an event that's open to the public can they buy a ticket and come and listen?

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Yes and who should come if you're interested in uh the security and well being of uh of Canada if you uh if you care about issues and how uh the government uh the military the police the intelligence services are addressing those issues of concern to you and that includes anything from your water security to whether you're under surveillance or not when you use your phone uh and everything in the middle of that space then then yes it is something that would be of interest. I think I think we need to be more aware of how we are being uh governed and how our security is being maintained in order that we are informed and able to speak up in a knowledgeable way about what we accept, don't accept like or don't like or want more of or less of and I think being informed is is really critical in that way.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Aaron Ross Powell for the common lay person that's that's not necessarily connected to to get involved.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Well yeah and also an opportunity for you to go speak to the people making those policies directly on a one-on-one basis.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

And and when those people show up at this conference are they aware that there might be people from the community who would love to have a conversation with them.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Yes yes yes okay so I find this a totally fascinating no kidding possibility and uh like just go online to the casesvancouver.ca website look for this well look for 2019's lineup and then get a taste um because I bet you it it it it kind of wets your appetite to know a little bit more uh I'm quite fascinated I can't wait to go oh Candace I am so so happy that you were able to join us today um I have one more question for you and this is one that um we've asked every guest on the show and I'd like to ask you in your mind with all of your experiences what is health health is a forgive the academic answer multidisciplinary um understanding of yourself your environment your surroundings uh it is an appreciation for the wellness and the things in your life that make you smile or feel contentment. It's the ability to see the grass and note the color of the green of the grass. It's an ability to be grateful for the rain because it actually is giving us water that is so important to what to what we need uh in life. It's an appreciation for your partner who is there by your side day and night and your ups and downs um it's about being considerate about what you put into your body and more importantly how you use your body on a daily basis. I firmly believe that you should take your shoes off regularly and go walk in the sand or walk in the grass on a constant basis every day if you can for five minutes so you can remain grounded in in what is our our actuality around us the planet that we live on the sky the color of the trees and love and gratitude for the people around you that's wellness for me. Thank you I think I would like to leave on one note and that is to ask young women young men uh out there uh to remind them uh to say their name whenever whenever they are speaking or engaged in the workspace uh because if you come up with good ideas if you do something you want people to remember who it was or else the attribution goes possibly to someone who it shouldn't and then you get resentful and then you know life becomes a nasty place because everybody steals your ideas. You can bypass all of that by just remembering to say your name. My name is Candace Calshol. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

So we want to take the time to thank you from the bottoms of our hearts for having this fascinating conversation with us today and for continuing to do the very important work that you do in the military police government training academics so that folks like us can carry on just not thinking about some of these things.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

So that concludes our small conversation with the inevitable Candace Kelshaw. The website for the Canadian Association for Security Intelligence Studies aka Cases Vancouver is casesvancouver.ca and we'll provide a link to that in the show notes and we'll see you here again soon for our next small conversation.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

And we will have the coffee on if you liked what you heard we encourage you to head on over to iTunes and leave us a five star review. Better yet subscribe and leave a review that really helps to make it easier for others to find us to help broaden this small conversation