Small Conversations for a Better World Podcast
Small Conversations for a Better World Podcast
Where Health and Security Meet / Candyce Kelshall
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Candyce Kelshall is using her organization, CASIS-Vancouver, to create a proactive model of disorder in the near long term. Why is this important and how does it relate to our COVID-19 global pandemic reality?
About Candyce Kelshall
Candyce Kelshall is a seasoned, in-theatre operational director and has worked extensively with militaries and advising police forces around the world as well as designing and delivering training to specialist units.
She is a former senior diplomat who is comfortable liaising with governments and operating at all levels within parliamentary and military contexts She has taught vocational (police, law enforcement, military and intelligence) as well as academic programs in over 17 countries. She has been teaching in a university professional program context for the last 10 years.
Kelshall has extensive experience teaching both undergraduate and graduate programs in international relations, geo-strategic security, intelligence, risk & threat assessment. She has 30 years experience in diplomacy, law-enforcement and military professional training, and ten years as military and police advisor in the UK. She has previously served as a diplomat, naval officer, specialist advisor and consultant in disaster response, critical incident and terrorist response, national emergency management and multi-agency joint operations architecture, as well as training design for intelligence fusion centres. She is currently teaching at Simon Fraser University as an Adjunct Professor of Criminology. Her current research interests lie in violent transnational social movements and their role in fifth generation war, the evolving nature of contemporary conflict, post-structural perspectives on human security, and subaltern realism in developing countries.
Kelshall is currently the President of the Canadian Association for Security and Intelligence Studies (CASIS) - Vancouver , which encourages and promotes the study and practice of intelligence and security through its research projects, instructional teams, the biannual publication of the Journal of Intelligence, conflict and Warfare, roundtable events and the annual CASIS West Coast Security Conference. She serves as Editor-in-Chief of the Journal of Intelligence, Conflict and Warfare, which publishes practitioner-focused briefing notes and articles on contemporary Canadian security issues. Kelshall is also a board member at the Canadian International Council - Vancouver, which is dedicated to advancing Canada's place in the world. Kelshall currently serves as the Director of DA-IC, which conducts specialist training to military units and police officers.
Website: CASIS - Vancouver
Find CASIS on Social Media : @CASISVancouver
Candyce Kelshall on Twitter: @CKelshall
Dr. Patrick Neal on Twitter: @patrickneal1
Natalie Arch on Twitter: @N.Arch
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Health is wealthy, and this is where we're going to talk about it. Small conversations for a Better World Podcast with hosts Gillian McCormick and Susanna Steers. This podcast represents the opinions of the hosts and or their guests to the show. The content is for informational purposes only and should not be taken as medical advice nor established legal standard of care. Just a quick note before we start. To respect social distancing requirements, we recorded this episode from our respective homes instead of our usual recording studio. Unfortunately, we ran into some interference that we just couldn't correct. We chose to leave it in because we feel that the message is so important. The crackle will occur for about four minutes. If you can't stand it, just jump ahead from minute 38 to about minute 41. We apologize for the audio blip, but we promise it's worth it. Hello everyone, and welcome to the Small Conversations for a Better World podcast. I'm Susanna Steers. And I'm Gillian McCormick. First of all, we are so pleased to offer this special episode. Maybe it's an extra special episode. We didn't anticipate doing this one when we last got together early in March with Dr. Dadesha Haloenko to discuss what we could all do today to address COVID-19. Since then, the world has changed. In this new landscape, we don't meet in person unless absolutely necessary, and only when we can observe physical distancing of at least two meters between us. We here at the Small Conversations for a Better World podcast, Jillian, Bri the Sound Guy, and myself, all want to take a moment to express a sincere hope that you and yours are keeping safe and well. Gillian and I are more convinced than ever that the smart, diverse, multifaceted conversations about health are some of the most important ones we can have right now. As we speak, we're preparing for our second season coming to you in July 2020. We're right now sitting down with thought leaders, experts, and influencers alike to chat about health in the coming weeks. We are thrilled to be bringing you some thoughtful nuggets about many different things that affect and are affected by different aspects of health. For today's extra special interview, we reached out to our guest from one of season one's most talked-about interviews, Candace Kelshaw, president of the Canadian Association of Security and Intelligence Studies, adjunct professor of criminology, terrorism, risk and security studies program at Simon Fraser University, and chair of Direct Action International, which provides specialist maritime, military, and police training, is back with us for a remote interview. Jillian and I are in our respective homes, headphones in, practicing physically distant podcast hosting. Candace, welcome back and thank you so much for joining us again.
SPEAKER_00Oh, my pleasure. Difficult times, but you know, here we are getting together and doing things to make the world a better place. Happy to help.
SPEAKER_02So to start us off, since the last time we were together, we had such a wonderful conversation about leadership. I did want to talk a little bit about the leadership we can see emerging in Canada's COVID-19 pandemic. There has been, in my opinion, immense leadership demonstrated in Canada, both nationally with Mr. Trudeau and Dr. Teresa Tim, and provincially, although I'm most familiar with Dr. Bonnie Henry and Mr. Adrian Dix. I've been staggered by how calmly and thoroughly they are providing information and directing the actions of the public. I know that there's uh examples from other provinces, but I'm definitely less familiar with those. What have your thoughts been about these examples of leadership?
SPEAKER_00That is a great place to start. And I have to say, uh leadership is a space that I'm very comfortable functioning in. And I really want to take the moment to single out uh both Dr. Bonnie Henry and Dr. Teresa Tam as being the embodiment of uh, in the instance of Teresa Tam, crisis leadership, firm, direct, clear, uh, not beating around the bush, uh, being direct is the the key part of that. And secondly, with Dr. Bonnie Henry, who is quite simply an efficient, effective leader, uh, because she is doing the other part of leadership, which is uh explaining things to people, being clear about what shouldn't should not be done. She is honest and uh and her integrity is absolute. And I mean, you know, if I had to single out two individuals, it would be those two, and I'm so pleased that they're two women. Uh you also mentioned uh uh federal leadership, and it does strike a note with me the approach that the Prime Minister has taken uh in the, especially speaking from you know, from outside his home. It it reminds me of uh FDR Franklin Roosevelt and his fireside chats, if you will, uh back in the uh era of the New Deal when there was a similar moment of crisis in the United States. And I've definitely I see uh some of the language that uh that Prime Minister Trudeau is using is very reminiscent of that time. So good, strong, clear leadership. And I think, you know, uh I think the way Canadians are responding uh and and taking heed uh in a in a large majority uh is indicative of that. We trust our leaders.
SPEAKER_01Agreed.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I'd like to go back to something that um that I said when we spoke to you for our first interview, and I didn't know then how true this would turn out to be. Um I said that sometimes when I look at what I see happening around the world, the political, economic, and social upheaval, the conflicts, and also some of the really inspiring stuff, I wonder how we are going to navigate our way through the massive challenges and changes that seem to be on the horizon. And I certainly at that point didn't expect what we're in now. We find ourselves in a very challenging situation. And one of the things that has felt particularly striking in this bizarre time, and Gillian and I have talked about this, is the level of individual and collective vulnerability that we feel. There's the imminent threat of the health challenge, maybe getting COVID-19 and possibly succumbing to it, not controlling the spread of the virus in the community and having the sheer numbers of really sick people overwhelm our healthcare system. And maybe not having enough personal protective equipment for our frontline workers and having them be exposed. We wonder about economic threat, both personally and nationally. Jillian and I have both had to close our physical work premises. So, you know, you wonder how long will the economic implications last and will business ever look the same again? Um we could we could go on that we wonder about the children in this event and how they'll fare and the seniors who are so physically distant. Um, you know, how are they doing? The women and children facing increased rates of domestic violence while they shelter with the most dangerous person of their lives. You know, we could go on and on and on about the various facets of this that are kind of freaking us all out. But under and around and between all of this, we start to wonder about the other kinds of disorder that might be brewing that we're not even thinking about. So we reached out to you, Candace, and you told us that in fact you have a model for predicting disorder in this near long term. Can you tell us what that means and a little bit more about it?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh, I'd like to acknowledge what you just what you
Observations of the New World Order
SPEAKER_00just said about the the realities of the new space that we are that we are living and working in. And a couple of things that you mentioned uh struck me as being quite important. Um you mentioned the feeling of vulnerability and of uh a feeling of you know uh of a lack of safety, um, which is uh which is how we describe what what uh what security is. It's a lack of feeling insecure and a lack of feeling unsafe. And that's a very real sensation uh for most of the world's population uh currently. It's a very re it's very real in the sense that we need to ensure that our essentials, our Maslow hierarchy of needs is being met, food safety, uh uh security, uh physical, physical safety. Uh, and we're uncertain about what what work means and what work will look like. And and these are very real, very real fears. Um the world has changed, and I think that it will take some time before we settle into that new reality. And I mean that quite literally. I I don't think the world will be normal again. It will be a new normal. It will be perhaps familiar, but it will not be the same as it was before. And I don't want to be I don't want to be alarmist when I say that. Um and the reason I'm I'm making this suggestion is because uh we have to adjust to something that we have not had to deal with before. And it is particularly difficult in democracies where there is an expectation of uh the right to assemble and an expectation of individual rights, and an expectation of uh of pursuing things that make you happy, and more importantly, an expectation of work in order to provide for your families. And these things are given and they are they're part of our uh by implication, our charter and the various constitutions of different uh Westphalian democracies around the world. That that's changed, that's overnight suddenly gone. Freedom of movement, uh the f the ability to do as you wish, to go to places, to meet with people, that's disappeared. It is an imperative in this moment, which we are adhering to because we know it is important for our future long-term well-being. But as this new reality wears on longer and longer, then the dynamic will begin to change. And that is something that we simply cannot ignore. The Canadian government in particular have to have taken very early, prior to other governments that I'm aware of uh in my reading, uh, measures to assure individuals at home and like yourselves, whose businesses have had to close their physical premises and who are not able to work, that there will be money to provide for your essentials, or there will be food banks available in the event that you need it, and that we will put money into your account and make sure your physical safety is assured. That's paramount. There will be less opportunity for people to feel what I term discord, which is uh chafing at the edges of uh of uh of normalcy and and law and order, there will be less opportunity for that because these these things are we've been told very early will be met. Now, having said all of that, the world as we know it has turned upside down, and the things that we do that keep us successful and and and profitable and uh and good citizens are are now the opposite. That sounds a bit uh strange, doesn't it? But the the going out, getting a job, bringing uh food and money home uh is no longer an option. Being able to be vulnerable, take what would be we would term as handouts in order to survive, uh changes the mindset and the mental health. It affects people mentally over a long period of time. That ability to say I am vulnerable and need help or I can't do this without you, it's actually the opposite of what our ethos is as democratic countries. So when we take that into account, we begin to see something strange emerging. While oddly to me, and I need to examine this a bit more, levels of crime uh in uh remain more or less consistent, um, and I would class this as opportunistic crime, I was expecting that that might go down. It hasn't. But I think that's temporary and I think it will. But what is more interesting to me is that in areas where we see organized crime, uh in narco uh cartel type uh countries, in uh areas where there are large groups of well-known uh uh organized crime gangs, in organizations which we have in the past referred to as as uh as uh aids to to uh jihadist terrorism, there are some communities uh where we see these these groups of people stepping up and keeping their communities safe. There are areas in Brazilian favelas currently which are being locked down, where food and medicine is being shared via the gangs that run those favelas, uh, for example. Uh in parts of the Middle East, the Muslim Brotherhood is providing medicine uh and looking after people who cannot be out and about. They are organized crime gangs in the Caribbean who are literally locking down neighborhoods in order to ensure that people remain indoors, penalize them if they come out in order for things to stay safe. And where we do see people acting out are in the good citizens, if you will, of the old world order, uh where we see church leaders, for example, advocating for people to leave uh the lockdown and to go out and and to get together. So there's a there's a flip happening which is unusual.
SPEAKER_01It's a pretty profound flip when you when I hear it described the way you've just said it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I it leaves me with all sorts of questions. And I think that's something that we're beginning to see, and and what's going to happen now is that as people feel uh restricted, uh as the uh denial or removal of their rights uh begins to wear on their desire to be good citizens, as a real economic need in some cases uh begins to bite, and people need to actually get bread or milk or or diapers for their babies or insulin, and that is just not so accessible, then we'll begin to see good citizens begin to do things that we would not expect. When that happens in the world, we define it as anime. It's a condition in which the existing structures uh are perceived to be incapable of functioning effectively for a population uh in the in this within the social contract that we have with the state. And so what happens is that actors emerge who are previously uh good actors who now become bad actors. And you know, there are some instances where we might be able to say that certain community groups, uh there are groups of young students who are still going to beaches and having parties, there are churches, as I said, who are advocating for physical uh community. These are situations that we're not accustomed to dealing with. These are not bad people, these are good people doing things that they are accustomed to doing and for which there is a sense of entitlement, given the democratic way that we that we that we live in. So this is going to present a challenge for policing and security because there are no laws as such uh in this anime. Uh the laws exist for what used to be, where crime had a particular a particular meaning. Crime now might be construed as leaving your house uh uh or coughing on someone.
SPEAKER_02Uh different world. That is a different world. And I mean those things are happening, the coughing on someone. My sister was literally spat on yesterday.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02When she went for a walk.
SPEAKER_00I myself have been coughed on by someone who was upset with me uh in a store going for milk. Yes. So it is happening as a means of being of displaying anger. Yes. And this these instances are going to increase the longer the situation remains.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that you've just named while we hadn't thought of it in quite the specific terms that you've named and examples. Sue and I could it's like you could feel it. That how long can our new normal possibly persist, like before some cracks start showing up? And what are those potential cracks? And I mean, I think those are other questions. Um, and Sue and I have zero way to put together any rational approach to thinking about these things at all. Um, and so we were really interested that that um that you had a predictive model. And so I wondered first of all, who was the we that created the predictive model?
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, I have uh okay,
Proactive Model of Disorder in the Near Long Term
SPEAKER_00so let's so it's not a predictive model, it's think of it more as a proactive model. Um when we predict things, and and there's a real academic uh reason for this, apologies. Um I am an academic. Yeah, let's do it. Um when we use the word predictive, we are we are we are relying on existing knowledge or existing crime uh statistics or existing knowing of the world um in order to make uh to make a prediction based on what has been in the past. Um, in this circumstance, that is an impossibility because this is a completely new environment. It's even different to post uh the previous pandemics that we've had in the past, because now we have the internet uh and that is a tool of messaging which can change people's behavior or convince people to behave in a certain way. And in the past, there was only the one voice, which was the voice of state authority. So that that has changed, and we can't predict in that sense. We can, however, be proactive by taking into account people's behavior by, for example, my team and I uh have come up with uh a data set where we have been accumulating all the instances of what we would term as disorder uh uh that we have seen occurring in the last three weeks, and we've been grading and classifying these. So the WE is the uh the team at CASES, but in particular my co-author Natalie Archetowski and uh Marco Ortiletano uh who have been working with me on developing this project. Uh we have uh uh a computer modeling associate whose name is Dr. Patrick Neal, and between us we have been uh putting together this model. What we're going to do eventually is uh lay uh big data information on top of the model, which will give us more uh anonymized uh bulk uh reading of what what people are doing uh within uh uh within this space. So what what is it, what does the proactive model do that we're looking at? We're looking at being able to measure disorder and something that we call discord. And I think I referred to discord previously as where uh where people's agreement with the social contract or agreement to listen to law and order uh and authority, that begins to chafe uh in the face of this new normal, and that discord will emerge. And disorder is is classed as uh simply where uh individuals uh do not listen to to the those who have legitimate authority to suggest what they should or should not do, where they incite others perhaps to to counter existing instructions which are designed to promote the safety and security of communities and individuals, and and where they may uh either provoke or promote actions which will result in civic resistance to good order, um, as expressed by those who have the legitimate authority. So if when we come up with these types of new definitions, they begin to make sense of this new reality that we're operating within because of this, these these crimes that are not crimes, um because of the new environment that we're in. I know this sounds all strange, but you know, when we break it down, there is a new way of being, there is a new way that we have to be. The old way of being that made us successful can no longer function uh legitimately, and we have new rules which we've never had before, which we are at heart, all of us, profoundly uh in disagreement with because we value our freedom and our liberty. But we also value looking after those we love, and that balance, that tension between those two variables is where we can measure this discord.
SPEAKER_02100%. I get it. Um, and I I actually love that there's a group of people in the world who spend their time thinking about these things. Um you just named it. You named what's happening here. We're all deeply uncomfortable with being at home. And on the other hand, we deeply love humanity and we're not going to be the ones to mess this up. And that's why we're paying, that's why we're staying home. What if, you're right, if it gets too uncomfortable, if we can't get the right food in, if we're not safe, if we can't get our medications, if we
SPEAKER_01etc it will break down and that that's called the pursuit of well-being so that there's that tension between that pursuit of well-being you know and uh and uh and doing what what is right that tension is is going to be an issue yeah so do you see that that I'm I'm not sure who would use this uh is it is it people oh it's like yourself and politicians or police uh who would use this model and can we use it to kind of help um I guess develop policies or or courses of action to deal with this kind of tension?
SPEAKER_00Well that that is that's actually happening at the moment we are we are actively uh in uh discussions with police forces um who are keen to get an a grip or an understanding of what what they should be thinking of doing and how they should be resourcing both their people and and their physical assets and and one of the reasons is that um you can use police officers to uh to enforce some of these new requirements and regulations um but if you look at New York for example over 700 officers are currently ill with with covet with COVID um there is no we cannot honestly see that that is not yet going to come uh to to Canada because our police officers are outdoing their jobs and unless they're looking after themselves uh you know these are things that are potentially uh might happen but that's in the present what we're referring to is in the long term because there is an an an implicit uh expectation uh in the back of our minds this isn't going to last long and it'll be over by next week and that's not valid so at the back of our heads we're thinking we'll get back to normal next week or okay maybe in two weeks and then we'll we'll go back to doing what we used to do. And I don't think most people have adjusted to the fact that that is not going to happen. This the this particular situation that we're in while it is a while it is very rapid to move through society it is less rapid to clear out of society and one infected person still has the potential to you know to infect multiples of other people just you know in the course of of their daily life something that was particularly astounding to me to note was that even being out taking fresh air walking or running or cycling people can be exposed to COVID if the person in front of them who had just walked prior to them might have had it and coughed or sneezed because of the nature of the particles lingering in the air. That was an astounding revelation to me because it's such an opportunity to go out and get fresh air with your family but you don't know who's walking in front of you.
SPEAKER_02There's been a lot of talk about models in our media lately related to COVID numbers nationally and province by province. We know that a lot of people are demanding these kinds of models and we know that Dr. Henry feels that these aren't models that are necessarily appropriate for public consumption. Useful for leadership perhaps so they can make informed decisions about how they move forward. And I guess the point I'm just trying to make is back to your point about trust for the people that we still sit here in the quandary of of any relationship with leadership that we need to be deeply trusting of our leaders. We need to give them the models and trust that they're going to interpret them and reach for the information and then act on them accordingly. Do you feel that your model could help then police forces and governments and militaries etc to figure out what to do with time.
SPEAKER_00Yes I want to agree with what you said wholeheartedly the the indicator of success for the population staying at home doing as they're told for the long term and I I do mean long term this is not something that's going to change overnight or next week or in two weeks or even next month for the long term honest clear communication and trust in those people who are charged with the legitimate authority to ensure our safety that is the only thing that will allow us to overcome our personal instincts of needing to get out there and do things ourselves it is very hard for for people to say I'm vulnerable please help me and we have to overcome that and that will only be possible with clear honest concise communication where that perception of trust remains very high. In Canada we're fortunate certainly uh uh that we have that to a large to a large extent within the individual provinces I can't speak to I can't speak to the relationships that exist between populations and
Data Points Analysed to Create this Model
SPEAKER_00their leadership but certainly in BC currently uh that exists and we see this in our in in the caseloads so to talk about the model and how how I can say these things um what we do is we're looking at a variety of factors so our model takes into account uh 10 different factors where we are measuring how people are responding uh to certain sets of behavior we're looking at stability in the community we're looking at the degree of institutional trust and people's perceptions of uh of equality and justice we are measuring uh all of these things against the the depth of the lockdown restrictions sorry the actual lengths of lockdowns and and we can extrapolate forward um based on that um you know the longer it goes on what are we likely to see and also looking at the types of communication that is being consumed within various communities like where they're getting their information from and and who are they trusting and also looking at cultural norms and the influences of uh of religion um particularly uh on on individuals and and on particular communities and that helps us come up with an understanding of what what disorder would look like in that community and and the types of policing responses that may or may not be required and consequently um policy responses that may or may not be required as those scores that we give to each of these communities change over time. So with our model it it allows us to be proactive in terms of planning and understanding uh what uh what specific communities need in order to make sure that that trust remains constant trust in the police trust in those in charge of of allocating resources and assets and trust in the leadership within communities which is advocating what we should or should not be doing so the data that you collect uh it sounds to me that it I think you've made it clear that it's international data.
SPEAKER_02You're not just looking locally you're looking everywhere.
SPEAKER_00Yeah we're looking for trends and patterns um uh around the globe and those trends and patterns help us to uh better understand what some of the indicators are that we might be looking at if there if there is a commonality. We can then take those trends and patterns and apply them to when we're looking at various communities within Canada. That is not to say that what happens in one country will happen in Canada but it is to say that if it is a pattern that the large percentage of populations are doing, then it might be reasonable to assume with certain provisos that we might see the same sort of pattern of behavior here. Where we see distinctions is in terms of the degree of trust in institutions and trust in leadership and so where that trust is high we see certain patterns of behavior. Where that trust is low we see other patterns of behavior. So in areas where trust is low I mean state trust we see community groups and and and by community groups I don't mean I don't mean the old style community groups I mean organized crime groups stepping up because the populations have more trust and they are assuming the role of what the legitimate leadership would normally do in a normal environment. And then in places such as PC for example where there is a high degree of trust um which we've so far been measuring based on people adhering to the regulations that trust is much higher and so we see people listening uh to what the leadership is asking them to do.
SPEAKER_02But as time goes on that will change this might be a total aside but the the point about um organized crime groups stepping up and and you know stepping in to take care of people's needs and creating lockdown it just strikes me as a relationship that couldn't continue to be positive.
SPEAKER_00They are after all organized crime well I agree with you and I'm not advocating for organized crime groups in any way I'm just saying that there's this is a a peculiarity that we are noticing. In fact we predicted that it would occur because the structures that are in place that allow organized crime to operate are those structures allow them to penetrate communities from the top to the bottom and so they have better access than normal groups would have for getting resources, getting medicines and spreading it pop uh throughout the populations that they're dealing with in a much better way than we might argue some uh law enforcement federal law enforcement or federal communities would go ahead and that's because there's politics in the middle so there are people who are pro there are people who are who are anti there's partisanship and so that that that handshake that needs to happen in societies uh is not happening but the polarization about different identities different community groups different uh nationalities having different ways of being that handshake is not as tight as in an organized crime run area where none of those things actually matter right so I'm not advocating for organized crime I'm simply pointing out this isn't a this is an anomaly but it's not an anomaly it it it is it is a normal in an anime situation to see something like this occurring and I would draw reference to piracy that occurred in Somalia um uh uh back in 2012 uh for example where there was no strong federal representative government in Somalia there was an imposed government and what happened was Somali pirates began robbing ships but they with that money they built houses hospitals schools community centers and even created a stock exchange where people could invest in future earnings from different pirate attacks it doesn't make it right from a Western perspective because that's robbery but in that society where the state was not providing for the essential needs of the communities that became what was functioning and good because it allowed people to live and maintain uh uh a livelihood and and keep healthy and in this particular environment that we're in now keeping healthy maintaining a livelihood is what is important so what do we learn from this well we learned two things not that we should all move to an area where there's organized crime but but we should learn from what organized crime does uh and if we look at the Brazilian favelas there is another great example where there is a lack of leadership and a lack of institutional trust at the state level instead people trust what is local and what they see and what they know. Right. This is an important point for us to to bear in mind that partisanship uh polarization this is not a space that allows us to function effectively as a community that people have to look past these issues and instead start communicating at neighborhood levels, on the internet, by telephone, just understanding that the areas that we're living in we all regardless of who we are color creed race religion uh sexual orientation that we all are in we're traveling this road together. And it's an opportunity for us to drop these heavy polarized partisan views and identity based groupings that we are that we that we have and and actually work with one another and create the community that we want uh as we move forward into this new uncertain future.
SPEAKER_01So you I love that you said that Candice I love that you said that um that's something that that as I closed down my business um and and sort of prepared to to do I wasn't sure what at that time um I sent out an email to all of my people and and said basically I hope that this this whole thing will be a reminder to us of what community is really all about and just as you said it's get it's going beyond all of those all of those other markers and just recognizing that we have to look out for each other.
SPEAKER_02Yeah so thank you for speaking into that that means a lot and I think that the the WHO even came out the World Health Organization came out last week in in in strong statement of do not politicize this battle uh in this pandemic don't don't come out here with your politics or we're we're not gonna do as well globally we can't beat it.
SPEAKER_00Well the minute you do that that's where you begin to encourage and allow this disorder and this discord that I was referring to earlier.
SPEAKER_01The minute you allow space for that and we see it on the internet we're monitor we're monitoring you know what's open source currently uh and and what people are reading in different areas and there's lots of uh false information there's misinformation there's deliberate conspiracy theories being spread there's discussion that oh China has started this virus to wipe out the West and there are a lot of of same individuals that I know who are buying into this um this rhetoric and it's clearly misinformation designed to encourage this uh this polarization uh and and that polarization is our enemy right now it's not the it's not the virus the virus is a is a common threat that we face but polarization is our enemy and not coming together and helping one another and supporting one another virtually uh uh and where possible you know helping our neighbors if they're not as able as we are or don't have as much as we have uh we can do that and maintain physical uh physical social distancing it's possible we can still help one another um and any sort of discussion memes internet dialogue community groups which are which are advocating uh uh extremism or or identity based issues um there've there's been a lot of talk on the internet for example about this is a Chinese virus well actually it's a virus that that everyone has that's that's just not the case it is a virus it doesn't have a nationality
Healthcare and Security are Linked in Many Ways
SPEAKER_01Candace last fall you graciously invited us to attend the Western Canada Security Conference put on by CASIS and I just have to say what a thrilling and eye-opening experience that was uh we were both awakened to the the fascinating work that you do and that the researchers analysts police military and intelligence experts from Canada and around the world are doing and I think we were stunned to realize how much all of that work really does affect and uh influence the lives that I lead even though I'm not paying attention to those things.
SPEAKER_02When we went to that conference um you know I didn't realize that there were actually a great number of individuals who only think about security, safety, intelligence and policing I didn't know there were practitioners out there in the field and researchers who thought about stuff in the lab and I didn't know that just like in healthcare, there were sometimes perhaps often a gap between the research environment and the real world to use the evidence to so for instance if I have a patient in front of me who has low back pain in my clinic in front of me I have a battery of ways that I can help intervene to help this person feel better. And some of the things that I might do in the clinic have been heavily researched they have strong science behind them and what we call evidence. And other things that I might do have might have less evidence but I know they work really well. So there's always this driving in healthcare certainly in physio and in fitness to use the evidence to guide you in your practice but I find there's a frozen between the art and the science of physiotherapy for governments and police forces and militaries it appeared to me that there was a similar gap between evidence models and execution of procedures can you speak to the evidence around this model and maybe is there is there that gap that I'm talking about between the race and the boots on the ground?
SPEAKER_00That is a that is a brilliant question and given another lifetime I might actually do a PhD in answering it. What we try to do at the Canadian Association for Security and Intelligence Studies is to be that handshake between practitioners and academics so that practitioners can understand what's going on in the world that is uh evidence based but evidence based in a different way than the criminal courts require evidence to be criminal evidence must be something you can see hear feel and touch and it's present in order to ensure a conviction the evidence base in the academic world for the the lab as you call it where we research uh uh trends and patterns and emerging uh behaviors that evidence comes from what what is happening in society so for example at CASES we have a we have multiple data sets um showing developing trends and patterns we literally have millions of transactions from the internet from uh uh social behavior from new and emerging types of crime that we see uh uh developing uh new new types of of in infractions such as something that we call soft violence which isn't a crime but it is something which is you know taking our societies and ripping them apart it's where one social group or one identity group tries to exert its dominance over another identity-based group and that tension results in conflict and it results in increasing polarization and increasing disorder so these things are not crimes but there is clear evidence based on social behavior and patterns of behavior that we can use to create models to help policing understand that society is changing and in that we influence policy a lot quicker than has happened in the past and that way we help policing be more effective and be more respected and trusted because in that way the the the the policing and public safety is keeping pace with social change.
SPEAKER_02So
Who are our Allies?
SPEAKER_02Candace we've seen a few concerning things in recent days uh we've seen things like India restricting the export of active pharmacological ingredients in early March and then there's been a terse back and forth between India and the United States we've seen US President Donald Trump puffing and posturing that he might post the army on the Canada US border. Mr. Trump also ordered a major manufacturer of N95 masks to not ship to Canada. Things like these give me pause for certain I often start to wonder aren't these our allies? And if these things come about it will feel like a huge betrayal and if actually maybe super naive and if one push competition to not really our allies then who are our allies are there other threats that we need to think about and if anything what should we the public be doing well that's a conversation stopper um so here's my take on this and it's my personal view.
SPEAKER_00I doesn't represent any of the organizations I work with um and it's certainly not a Canadian view but but I think the fair mongering around this comes from particular individuals and I think that countries that we have associated as being Canadian allies, British allies uh those those countries those countries remain our allies uh the people who work in the institutions that uphold democracy and the institutional liberal structure that that we have in place in Western democracies they are not run by individuals there are professionals and people working within those structures um and the institutions themselves are are what is responsible for making sure that we remain allies and working together. And that holds for the time being so individuals such as Mr Trump are making these statements doesn't take away the fact that the institution itself has processes and procedures that allow that relationship To remain intact, and we've seen that play out where uh he's uh pulled back on some of these outrageous things that he's suggested, and the actual organizations themselves, in particular, I'm speaking about 3M actually standing up and saying that that's not acceptable and that we will not be doing that. So, challenging times. Uh, what does crisis leadership look like so that people feel safe? It looks like the kind of leadership that we currently have: clear, concise, not contradictory, not designed to create uh partisanship or polarization, a lack of politicking, but just speaking directly to people about the things that are in their hearts and that and stop them sleeping at night. And that's the kind of leadership that we're you know we are we have currently. And I say this in a non-political manner. I say this as a human being living in a state. Yeah, that that for me is a is a point to note. Other threats that we should be thinking about, if our allies are not our allies, our our biggest threat right now is the common threat, which is this virus, but it is also our own ego, and that's something that we need to bear in mind. Our own ego, which wants us to do our own thing, believe that we know better, believe that we have more information, or that the people who are looking after us don't know what they're doing. That ego is the is our biggest enemy right now, and that is the affliction that the individual that you mentioned is suffering from. So ego is a problem.
SPEAKER_02That's a great answer. Thank you. That's uh really that provides me with a lot of actually clarity on the whole there are institutions behind the individuals.
SPEAKER_00And and the institutions, which is what is the framework that we have built our democracy on and our way of life in the liberal West, that that framework stands, it holds, it's working.
SPEAKER_01Even seeing those conversations that went on behind the uh the new NAFTA agreement, and I never remember the name of the new new deal, um, but watching how that came came about, and I know it hasn't been finally signed yet, but um that I think sort of shows that very thing that there were a lot of things going on behind the scenes and a lot of relationships that were developed beyond the president that allowed that to go forward.
SPEAKER_00And that's the nature of institutionalism. Uh our institutions are the things that keep us uh intact currently, and I don't know if people uh appreciate that uh enough. The the institutions themselves are what stops mob rule from occurring. When you have individuals who want to polarize people, the the institutions, by institutions I mean the judiciary, the uh uh public safety, uh the uh the uh law and order, those institutions are designed that that even minorities are safe and individuals are safe, and that any sort of populist mob rule cannot override the rights of small communities, small minorities. It also means that the prevailing norms of who our friends are and who our enemies are and how we work together and how we reduce the enemy in our enemies into a commonality of being part of humankind. The institutions are helping us to do that, and those institutions, those structures remain in place.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, we do hear a lot of disagreement right now, or at least I do, and maybe it's just I'm hearing too much internet. Um, lots of disagreement about the health versus economy discussion. So from my perspective, Canada seems to be doing a pretty darn good job of balancing the two. Um, there's no question though that we're all experience a pretty experiencing a pretty severe economic dislocation. And with everything as interconnected to the global economy, are there threats that you see as a result of sort of pandemic-related economic uncertainties either in Canada or around the world?
SPEAKER_00Uh yes. Everything that we know will change.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00That's a threat. Um but but they are good things, uh things that you know would would please, I think uh that would please you. They are the working from home will become much more important. Smaller community-based uh economic uh concerns uh will become more important. The stripping down of regulations that sometimes are a bit pointless will become much thinner and more practical and pragmatic in the space of this changing environment and the need to adapt and shift quickly. And we've seen that with examples such as the story of Trust Corps, the Canadian company building the partitions for hospitals who acquired their medical grade license within a matter of days rather than the months that it would have required that would have that you know that has allowed them to um to help Canadian hospitals limit the spread of this virus. Um there are multiple examples of how the way we work will change. Um will we use technology technology significantly more? Uh big industries, I think, will certainly suffer to some extent. Um, there are businesses that will not reopen unquestionably, and this is an opportunity for people to look at reskilling, upskilling, using uh uh the internet uh for the opportunity to do online classes. Uh education, uh which I am part of, will change dramatically as a result of this. Uh, because the ability to have virtual and e-classrooms, now that it be now that it is a norm, it will remain a norm as we go forward. So there's a lot of dramatic change, and all of it brings dislocation for people who may not be tech savvy, but it also brings dislocation for people who are not using this opportunity to understand that there may be a need to upskill.
SPEAKER_01Well,
Reassurance and Practical Strategies
SPEAKER_01you know, when we attended the CASES conference, I think both Gillian and I were stunned by the sort of the wide array of uh disorder, potential disorders and things that were being studied and planned for by experts here and around the world. And I think our goal in having this conversation today with you was not to give people more to worry about. Instead, it was really to provide some context and reassurance that there are people doing this important work behind the scenes and who've been doing it for a while. You know, you're preparing for this stuff. And and what we really want to do is encourage people to think about the links that connect us all and the possibilities and the ways that we might strengthen those ties rather than build walls at times like these.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So I'm just wondering, Candace, in closing, what might you say to people who are now sheltered in their homes, hoping that they will survive this pandemic wave and its aftermath? Is there a way for us to think about these things and prepare as we need to do responsibly without getting overwhelmed by it all in what's already an overwhelming time?
SPEAKER_00Um that is uh that's a great point that you make. And the first thing is a subject that's very close to my heart is uh is people's mental health. Um will be uh it's it's challenging to be confined to a space and to one group of people for lengthy periods of time, no matter how much you love them. Um it's challenging only because we are accustomed to a different normal. And so from a mental health perspective, um, it's really important that we adjust quickly to the fact that this is a new normal and that we're not being you know mentally to accept that this is a new type of normal and it's not something that that you should be frustrated over because something has been taken from you. I think if we look at things differently, it will help us. I'm letting go of sorts. Let it go and accept that this is a new normal and something isn't being withheld from you, and you're not being forced to do something. That the acknowledgement to yourself and to those you love that you are choosing to do something out of a space of love, um, so that you can you can help us all feel uh adapt to this new normal more quickly. Secondly, um remembering that we can be in community and in and in neighborhood uh virtually or using social distancing, still speak to those who are around us or living uh in the same space that we're living in outside of our home, and looking after each other and trying to anticipate other people's needs and being considerate of them. Thirdly, trust the police, trust those in authority who have this legitimate authority to look after and seek your well-being, and look for integrity in those leaders where they speak honestly and they do what they say they're going to do. And then I would also ask that people be consistent in their own approaches and behavior with uh with the people that they are engaging with. If we are consistent, that brings us safety and it brings us a small measure of certainty uh in the space of a much larger uncertainty in the world around us. That consistency is the most important thing we can ask for because people can trust that and count on it. And where we have trust, we have community and a safe society.
SPEAKER_01That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_01It's beautiful, and it comes back again to so many of the discussions that we had in our last conversation around trust and vulnerability and leadership and and having you know, the the piece that I'm hearing even more clearly today is the consistency. And it's true, if something is consistent, you can rely on it.
SPEAKER_00It's a building block for the kind of society that we want. It's that consistent, um, honest, straightforward space where we understand each other, and you know, there isn't anything in the in the middle between our relationship as human beings, and uh and that's going to be really important as we move forward because we need to renegotiate a new normal, and and that will take you know open, honest dialogue and consistent communication.
SPEAKER_02Never have I been more aware of how vulnerable we are. Never have I felt more privileged to simply be lucky enough to live in a community where the vast majority are listening to leadership and have retreated to shelter in place in their homes. I've never been more touched, and I've never been more aware that I'm part of a community, and seeing the things that the community has been doing to come together to support each other, even that basic simple act of closing the doors to our businesses, our offices, libraries, gyms, theaters, and going home, how it is based in a kind of radical human love. It's uh it's actually something that just strips me bare almost daily to think about. I thank you so much for joining us today, Canvas, and sharing your expertise and experience. Um it does always make me feel a whole lot better that there are people like you and your people thinking about the things that I don't have enough experience to uh to judge maybe rationally on my own. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, and and thank you for bringing this conversation uh forward. Uh, I think it's an important one to have now so that we can all have you know some measure of uh of an understanding of what our individual responsibilities are in moving forward. Uh, thinking that's all safe.
SPEAKER_01So thank you for that. This conversation was an extra special episode of the Small Conversations for a Better World podcast. Get ready for season two, coming your way this July 2020.
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